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	<title>Comments on: Mega-Rant: Why Art?</title>
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	<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/</link>
	<description>Indie Game Devs from Winnipeg, Canada</description>
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		<title>By: (Resonance Machine) The Birth of Fanboy Culture &#171; Game Reader</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-7287</link>
		<dc:creator>(Resonance Machine) The Birth of Fanboy Culture &#171; Game Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 05:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-7287</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8211;Alec Holowka [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211;Alec Holowka [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kaworu Nagisa</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3827</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaworu Nagisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3827</guid>
		<description>Hello Alec,

Splendid post, to be honest. Not an easy one, too. At first I really wanted to answer to many things you have expressed your opinion about but in the end I decided to keep it short.

The more I meditate about games (or interactive &quot;whatever&quot;) as art, interactivity as a medium with potential to become no different than dance, film, music, theatre, literature (all of them I consider vessels, or metaphoric ways, for human thought/emotion expression) the more quotation from Frank Zappa biography repeats in my mind. &quot;Talking about music is like dancing about architecture&quot;. If only one believes that silence teaches him how to sing, yes, it&#039;s so true.
And for some reason I think that it is like that with talking about games as art. While it might be interesting, might sometimes lead somewhere, it&#039;s like a shadow of an object instead of an object itself.
It&#039;s my very personal opinion, of course, and I&#039;m not trying to impose my vision at anyone but the way I see it a designer should go deeper and deeper and deeper. Art is an abstract. What is art is an abstract. Meaningfulness is what matters. Something widely considered art doesn&#039;t learn, inspire, enrich or change one&#039;s life. It is what one discovers as meaningful, and what he responses to emotionally, intuitionally or philosophically that matters to him the most. Because it is the force behind this change that makes him feel more of a valuable human being.
That&#039;s what I personally find of greatest importance. Because emotions and visions can be enchanted into interactivity. Potential was never a doubt, imo. But infantilization of interactive medium like games is like a monument so big that sun can barely be seen no matter what time of day it is.

-K.

P.S. Thank you for the post. It inspired me to express myself and that&#039;s what I have to be grateful for :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Alec,</p>
<p>Splendid post, to be honest. Not an easy one, too. At first I really wanted to answer to many things you have expressed your opinion about but in the end I decided to keep it short.</p>
<p>The more I meditate about games (or interactive &#8220;whatever&#8221;) as art, interactivity as a medium with potential to become no different than dance, film, music, theatre, literature (all of them I consider vessels, or metaphoric ways, for human thought/emotion expression) the more quotation from Frank Zappa biography repeats in my mind. &#8220;Talking about music is like dancing about architecture&#8221;. If only one believes that silence teaches him how to sing, yes, it&#8217;s so true.<br />
And for some reason I think that it is like that with talking about games as art. While it might be interesting, might sometimes lead somewhere, it&#8217;s like a shadow of an object instead of an object itself.<br />
It&#8217;s my very personal opinion, of course, and I&#8217;m not trying to impose my vision at anyone but the way I see it a designer should go deeper and deeper and deeper. Art is an abstract. What is art is an abstract. Meaningfulness is what matters. Something widely considered art doesn&#8217;t learn, inspire, enrich or change one&#8217;s life. It is what one discovers as meaningful, and what he responses to emotionally, intuitionally or philosophically that matters to him the most. Because it is the force behind this change that makes him feel more of a valuable human being.<br />
That&#8217;s what I personally find of greatest importance. Because emotions and visions can be enchanted into interactivity. Potential was never a doubt, imo. But infantilization of interactive medium like games is like a monument so big that sun can barely be seen no matter what time of day it is.</p>
<p>-K.</p>
<p>P.S. Thank you for the post. It inspired me to express myself and that&#8217;s what I have to be grateful for <img src='http://infiniteammo.ca/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: God at play &#8211; spiritual games&#187; On Art and Games As Art</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3729</link>
		<dc:creator>God at play &#8211; spiritual games&#187; On Art and Games As Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3729</guid>
		<description>[...] Holowka was kind enough to respond to Greg&#8217;s post and suggested we check out his recent post Why Art?.  I was inspired enough by both of them that my comment to both of their posts turned into this.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Holowka was kind enough to respond to Greg&#8217;s post and suggested we check out his recent post Why Art?.  I was inspired enough by both of them that my comment to both of their posts turned into this.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alec Holowka</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3728</link>
		<dc:creator>Alec Holowka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3728</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments! I haven&#039;t had a chance to read all of them yet.

Until then, here&#039;s an interesting response to this article: http://www.godatplay.com/2010/01/on-art-and-games-as-art/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments! I haven&#8217;t had a chance to read all of them yet.</p>
<p>Until then, here&#8217;s an interesting response to this article: <a href="http://www.godatplay.com/2010/01/on-art-and-games-as-art/" rel="nofollow">http://www.godatplay.com/2010/01/on-art-and-games-as-art/</a></p>
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		<title>By: JRGBruno</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3725</link>
		<dc:creator>JRGBruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 18:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3725</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that post. I too am baffled by the reluctance of many gamers to call video games what they are. This attitude would be slightly more understandable if it were simply a generational issue, but the fact that it often comes from gamers themselves is inexcusable. I actually find it somewhat disturbing. Rather than trying to persuade these people, I think we should be confronting them (as you have just done) in order to expose the real motivation behind this sort of denialism.

One possible cause behind their denials is eloquently described in one of my favorite Nietzschean aphorisms:  &quot;The higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly.&quot; To me this goes to the heart of the issue. When we see someone doing something that  we believe to is beyond our capacities, our first reaction is often to dismiss its importance (or to mock it as &quot;pretentious&quot;).

This is exactly what&#039;s going on with many of the &quot;uber nerds&quot; you described. Simply put, their reluctance to accept video games as art is their way of coping with some deep personal insecurities that many of them have held since high school. They don&#039;t want to speak of video games as art because doing so calls attention to the medium. It would make the medium &quot;more important,&quot; more mainstream and more diverse. If you love video games, this might seem like a good thing, but the uber nerd doesnt&#039;t see it that way. He&#039;s afraid of losing control over his niche; he&#039;s afraid that he&#039;ll lose the status and power that he currently enjoys in the hardcore community  once the &quot;cool&quot; art crowd invades it. He feels at a subconscious level perhaps) that once videogames become truly recognized as art in the mainstream, the industry will no longer be dominated by escapist fantasies or virtual &quot;machismo.&quot; Your  Halo 3 expertise will no longer be treated with respect and deference; at best, it will place into a nerdy subculture of hopelessly nerdy obsessives (think of the Star Trek community in the film world). 

In short, once games become &quot;officially&quot; recogiozed as art, the result will be that more people will enter the uber nerds world; more people will take that world seriously; more people will seek to influence its direction; more people will pass judgment on it. And that&#039;s precisely what the uber nerd is afraid of. He doesn&#039;t want to lose control. He doesn&#039;t want to share his role-playing experiences with you. He&#039;d rather keep them private. He&#039;d rather call it a &quot;hobby.&quot; He&#039;d rather downplay this hobby that he loves so much. All in the hopes of being left alone.

Believe me, saying this does not give me any satisfaction. I also have many nerdy friends whom I care about deeply. I also share their fear and distrust of the masses, at least when it comes to popular culture and art. But we have to call them out on this more often. We can&#039;t let personal insecurities and resentments stand in the way an entire artform right?

My apologies if I&#039;m rambling a bit. And thanks again for the great article!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that post. I too am baffled by the reluctance of many gamers to call video games what they are. This attitude would be slightly more understandable if it were simply a generational issue, but the fact that it often comes from gamers themselves is inexcusable. I actually find it somewhat disturbing. Rather than trying to persuade these people, I think we should be confronting them (as you have just done) in order to expose the real motivation behind this sort of denialism.</p>
<p>One possible cause behind their denials is eloquently described in one of my favorite Nietzschean aphorisms:  &#8220;The higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly.&#8221; To me this goes to the heart of the issue. When we see someone doing something that  we believe to is beyond our capacities, our first reaction is often to dismiss its importance (or to mock it as &#8220;pretentious&#8221;).</p>
<p>This is exactly what&#8217;s going on with many of the &#8220;uber nerds&#8221; you described. Simply put, their reluctance to accept video games as art is their way of coping with some deep personal insecurities that many of them have held since high school. They don&#8217;t want to speak of video games as art because doing so calls attention to the medium. It would make the medium &#8220;more important,&#8221; more mainstream and more diverse. If you love video games, this might seem like a good thing, but the uber nerd doesnt&#8217;t see it that way. He&#8217;s afraid of losing control over his niche; he&#8217;s afraid that he&#8217;ll lose the status and power that he currently enjoys in the hardcore community  once the &#8220;cool&#8221; art crowd invades it. He feels at a subconscious level perhaps) that once videogames become truly recognized as art in the mainstream, the industry will no longer be dominated by escapist fantasies or virtual &#8220;machismo.&#8221; Your  Halo 3 expertise will no longer be treated with respect and deference; at best, it will place into a nerdy subculture of hopelessly nerdy obsessives (think of the Star Trek community in the film world). </p>
<p>In short, once games become &#8220;officially&#8221; recogiozed as art, the result will be that more people will enter the uber nerds world; more people will take that world seriously; more people will seek to influence its direction; more people will pass judgment on it. And that&#8217;s precisely what the uber nerd is afraid of. He doesn&#8217;t want to lose control. He doesn&#8217;t want to share his role-playing experiences with you. He&#8217;d rather keep them private. He&#8217;d rather call it a &#8220;hobby.&#8221; He&#8217;d rather downplay this hobby that he loves so much. All in the hopes of being left alone.</p>
<p>Believe me, saying this does not give me any satisfaction. I also have many nerdy friends whom I care about deeply. I also share their fear and distrust of the masses, at least when it comes to popular culture and art. But we have to call them out on this more often. We can&#8217;t let personal insecurities and resentments stand in the way an entire artform right?</p>
<p>My apologies if I&#8217;m rambling a bit. And thanks again for the great article!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3716</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3716</guid>
		<description>Really great entry there; especially your response to your own question about why it&#039;s important to you to call games art.  It really does come down to societal perception, and games just aren&#039;t at the place where we can *not* worry about the semantics, and what people who don&#039;t play them think of the medium (and more importantly, of the myriad unexplored potentials presented by the medium).

Appendix A was spot on as well; I think good buildings fit in that system quite snugly too; the artistic vision overcoming the harsh business reality, and making something memorable with the building technology of the time....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really great entry there; especially your response to your own question about why it&#8217;s important to you to call games art.  It really does come down to societal perception, and games just aren&#8217;t at the place where we can *not* worry about the semantics, and what people who don&#8217;t play them think of the medium (and more importantly, of the myriad unexplored potentials presented by the medium).</p>
<p>Appendix A was spot on as well; I think good buildings fit in that system quite snugly too; the artistic vision overcoming the harsh business reality, and making something memorable with the building technology of the time&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ninja Robot Dinosaur &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Teh Hotness &#8211; Amanda Palmer on &#8216;Art&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3713</link>
		<dc:creator>Ninja Robot Dinosaur &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Teh Hotness &#8211; Amanda Palmer on &#8216;Art&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3713</guid>
		<description>[...] Link courtesy: Infinite Ammo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Link courtesy: Infinite Ammo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: George K</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3705</link>
		<dc:creator>George K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3705</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s almost shocking how few people think this way. It never even seemed like that big of a stretch to me, but evidently some of us were primed for it by experience. I went to film school before jumping to game development (inspired partly by your dude Chris L) and it was odd to see the difference. In film, you can make pretentious art by being a jackass, but in games, simply trying to MAKE art is labeled pretentious. It&#039;s been easy to ignore that particular bit of insanity up to a point - after all, why waste time with the irrational? - but it&#039;s refreshing to see someone deliberately tackling the issue rather than charging ahead and hoping that the people who already &quot;get it&quot; will be there to witness the results (which has been my strategy, and it&#039;s earned me no end of browbeatings).

Thanks for this, Alec. I never really got the chance to talk with you at last year&#039;s GDC, but I&#039;m looking forward to changing that this year!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s almost shocking how few people think this way. It never even seemed like that big of a stretch to me, but evidently some of us were primed for it by experience. I went to film school before jumping to game development (inspired partly by your dude Chris L) and it was odd to see the difference. In film, you can make pretentious art by being a jackass, but in games, simply trying to MAKE art is labeled pretentious. It&#8217;s been easy to ignore that particular bit of insanity up to a point &#8211; after all, why waste time with the irrational? &#8211; but it&#8217;s refreshing to see someone deliberately tackling the issue rather than charging ahead and hoping that the people who already &#8220;get it&#8221; will be there to witness the results (which has been my strategy, and it&#8217;s earned me no end of browbeatings).</p>
<p>Thanks for this, Alec. I never really got the chance to talk with you at last year&#8217;s GDC, but I&#8217;m looking forward to changing that this year!</p>
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		<title>By: Rodolfo</title>
		<link>http://infiniteammo.ca/blog/mega-rant-why-art/comment-page-1/#comment-3702</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodolfo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infiniteammo.ca/?p=1893#comment-3702</guid>
		<description>&quot;The act of creating, rather than the creation... That is Art.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The act of creating, rather than the creation&#8230; That is Art.&#8221;</p>
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